Curse

Vulkanyaz · Nov 05, 2007, 11:47 AM // 11:47

The protective circle is easy imo... LoD+flags ftw.

Another vote here for gate of madness...

Sekkira · Nov 05, 2007, 11:55 AM // 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vulkanyaz

The protective circle is easy imo... LoD+flags ftw.

Another vote here for gate of madness...

The problem is not the difficulty, but how henchies tend to hang back, charge forward or stick to the same spot if any aggro is obtained while moving through. THAT is poor design, not difficulty.

LethalHands · Nov 05, 2007, 12:22 PM // 12:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

I'd have to agree with Oola's lab, the part of the golem with the protective circle. It could have been implemented better and was just poorly designed.

Nah. It was just designed with a human party in mind. I'm pretty sure they don't think about people using H/H to go through things like that. They're focusing on if a party of people can do it first and foremost. It's not safe to expect H/H to be given the same design priority as with a full human party. Although it's probably safe to assume it's up there, for something like that it's not going to be designed with H/H difficulty in mind.

Ontop of all that, the AI has limits to how it works. You can't program common sense. They don't know that stepping outside the circle means certain death. It's a calculated damage risk. The AI "lags" behind, regroups, and charges around you because they're following you around just like everywhere else. That's how they've always worked. It just works against you in that particular situation.

Abnaxus · Nov 05, 2007, 01:37 PM // 13:37

My vote goes to Aurora Glade Hard Mode for the bonus part.

The problem of this mission is not completing it, but actually get the bonus from Less Longbow, which in HM is 100% times killed by the 2 level 25 warriors.

I tried several times with H/H, even equipping Dunkoro with running skills and giving him the NPC as target, nothing. Tried also with my friend as monk, and he also wasn't able to arrive in time to save the NPC.
Then we did the mission, I was ranger runner, we killed everything and also the Demagogue, but of course with no bonus.

After that, I tried again several times with H/H, without success.
Then I found on wiki that if you wait long enough in the area before Less Longbow, there's a chance he's not attacked.

Tried once, waited 5 mins, nothing, he died.
Second try, went to lunch, came back after half an hour, and I found him in a safe place, with the esclamation mark on his head, the 2 warriors totally ignoring him, killed them, did the bonus.

Well, this is what I call bad design.

Antheus · Nov 05, 2007, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Quote:

I tried several times with H/H, even equipping Dunkoro with running skills and giving him the NPC as target, nothing. Tried also with my friend as monk, and he also wasn't able to arrive in time to save the NPC.

Did you rush to him, and did you use the back way? That is the most common reason for failure.

Of all the problems in HM, saving the quest giver was never a problem for the groups I've been in, regardless of class or organization - some were PUGs.

Abnaxus · Nov 05, 2007, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

Did you rush to him, and did you use the back way? That is the most common reason for failure.

I rushed to him from the path on the left, where there are 1 monk and 1 ranger under a sort of arch, and 1 boss after those 2, ignoring them (and heroes are difficult to manage if you want them to rush), don't know if there's another "back way" to the NPC.

pumpkin pie · Nov 05, 2007, 03:27 PM // 15:27

The one where you have to drop light of slfkdfj (forgot spelling) on the Harbinger in the garden before Koss ask for advise on Meloni.

the bonus is not what it says it is,

the bonus says kill the extra 2 harbinger for bonus, so i bring the light drop on the harbinger, so it dies, and did it for the second one, and that one die too..

then i have to drop 3 light on harbinger of nightfall to kill it, and what do you know, no bonus............... but I already kill the extra 2 harbingers,, if you want the player to kill harbingers and the margonites then you must say kill the extra 2 groups of margonites and 2 extra harbingers for bonus.

NOT KILL EXTRA 2 HARBINGERS

I also hate Moddok Crevices, still trying to figure out how to do that bonus without another player.

PyrAnkh · Nov 05, 2007, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Eternal grove. Cause that warrior boss rapes you on hard mode.

Stolen Souls · Nov 05, 2007, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Eternal Grove vote, here.

Forcing a split ftl

The Meth · Nov 05, 2007, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Worst mission ever: Abaddon's Mouth
Even in hard mode its dead easy, but when I grow old I will regret wasting so much of my youth watching that ghost walk around.
2nd: A large number of the nightfall missions. The missions are easy, but they are just boring and repetitive. Things like Venta Cemetery and Kodonur (NO YOU CAN'T ATTACK YET, YOU NEED ANOTHER USELESS RANGER WITH YOU OR YOU WILL GET PWNED!!!)
Not to mention the whole nightfall landscape goes from slightly nice looking desert -> ugly desert-> ugly desert-> ugly desert with pretty buildings->ugly desert->ugly gray desert->ugly black desert.
Sometimes I wish there was a way just to aggro every enemy on the map at the same time and just fight it out, if you beat them you win

Lots of people are against the canthan timed missions, I think they are just fine. I don't think I have ever actually failed to get masters on a timed mission, its not too stringent. The bonus actually makes sense in that every second you waste lets shiro get stronger. In most of the prophecies missions the bonus is almost always completely unrelated to beating the charr/white mantle/lich. I understand some people don't like being rushed, but it does make sense in the storyline that you can't just go back to shing jea and chill for a few months.

In general I dislike certain repetitive missions where you kill the same mob over and over for half an hour, then when you get to the end where you kill the same mob + 1 boss. About 3/4ths of the prophecies, 1/2 the nightfall and a few of the factions missions would fall under this category.

Antheus · Nov 05, 2007, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnaxus

I rushed to him from the path on the left, where there are 1 monk and 1 ranger under a sort of arch, and 1 boss after those 2, ignoring them (and heroes are difficult to manage if you want them to rush), don't know if there's another "back way" to the NPC.

This is why you failed. Never rush. And yes, this is the "back" way.

You first kill the monk and ranger, take all the time you want.

It's only after you pass them that the quest giver gets attacked.

Dryndalyn · Nov 05, 2007, 04:59 PM // 16:59

I liked all the timed missions in Factions the best. The best part is that everyone has to hurry to get Masters and there’s constant excitement, such that you hardly have time to think. I like almost ALL Factions missions with the exception of Gyala Hatchery.

Least favorite missions are the long, drawn out, boring Prophesies missions where getting Masters means that the mission must be drawn out even longer and become even duller.

Nightfall – well after arriving in Vabbie, I begin to like the missions. Pre-Vabbian missions – not really, with the exception of the Consulate Docks. Moddock Crevice is ok once you get the hang of it and can do it faster. The other pre-Vabbian missions aren’t a problem, they are just a bit long or maybe they seem that way. There’s no real excitement as there is in, say, the Grand Court of Sebelkeh, my fav Nightfall mission.

In short, I like missions that last about 25 minutes or less.

Favorite Mission – Vazunah Square! There’s nothing more exciting than this mission with a fire ele….or rit…or monk. Well, this mission is always fun for me with whatever class I play. I don’t care if the other random group is bad. I don’t care if I have to do it over again. I like this mission.

Worst design: Well, if I want to get Masters, I dislike Venta Cemetery the most. First kill this group, now go over and kill that group, which was exactly the same as the previous one. Now do that exact same thing some umpteenth more times and …ah forget it! No Protecter of Elona for me, I guess.

Tender Wolf · Nov 05, 2007, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Gate of Madness and Raisu Palace. They both suck. Oh, and all the other Realm of Torment missions. Gate of Madness is downright impossible. I was stuck on that one for weeks. And one time all we had to do was kill Shiro and we were through, and he used Impossible Odds and pwned us all. Then it took forever to get a decent group who didn't die after the first couple of Torment creatures (which are way too hard to kill). I hate that mission with a passion. And the Gate of Pain? OMG it's hard enough as it is what with Meteor Shower coming at you from all directions. Yeah let's just make it even harder by adding -20 every time we use a skill, especially for skill spammers like sins. Grant Curt of Sebelkeh is a disaster too. I mean, it's hard enough even if with real people because there are 3 Torment rifts to close and watch out for, and then you have to leave them to kill the Blasphemy so he doesn't take the alter of Lyssa and kill everyone because you failed the mission. Raisu Palace isn't as bad if you know what you're doing, but it sucks because you have to fight even more monsters if your two allies die because they can't shut a door. Not to mention it takes forever and is nearly impossible unless you have real people. And don't even get me started on Prophecies, that's my least favorite campaign. I dont' even remember those missions, I had help through them all and didn't even pay attention to them. Crazy storyline...

Squishy ftw · Nov 05, 2007, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tender Wolf

Gate of Madness and Raisu Palace. They both suck. Oh, and all the other Realm of Torment missions. Gate of Madness is downright impossible. I was stuck on that one for weeks. And one time all we had to do was kill Shiro and we were through, and he used Impossible Odds and pwned us all. Then it took forever to get a decent group who didn't die after the first couple of Torment creatures (which are way too hard to kill). I hate that mission with a passion. And the Gate of Pain? OMG it's hard enough as it is what with Meteor Shower coming at you from all directions. Yeah let's just make it even harder by adding -20 every time we use a skill, especially for skill spammers like sins. Raisu Palace isn't as bad if you know what you're doing, but it sucks because you have to fight even more monsters if your two allies die because they can't shut a door. Not to mention it takes forever and is nearly impossible unless you have real people.

I wouldn't blame the missions for that but your playstyle.

There's nothing wrong with a mission being somewhat challenging. Those missios aren't too hard. I've hero/henched them on all my characters except my first. (ahh..those good noobie days ^^).

boxterduke · Nov 05, 2007, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Was said in page one of this thread, hard missions are not badly designed.
Most of the posts in this thread mention hard missions, with people that are not able to do it.

Badly designed missions are the ones that force players on taking a certain skill to finish that mission, something like (although its not a mission) Duncan in HM were you needs that Assassin skill (forgot its name) to move the spirits.

Tea Girl · Nov 05, 2007, 05:29 PM // 17:29

all missions in NF.

why do i need to finish the whole mission to get the bonus?

this is bongus

boxterduke · Nov 05, 2007, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tea Girl

all missions in NF.
why do i need to finish the whole mission to get the bonus?
this is bongus

QFT, now that is a legit reason for bad design.

natural sugar · Nov 05, 2007, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Have your runner run around to their base (if h/h, this is you) while the rest of the group (if h/h, this is the h/h, flagged) kills their runner... then grab their crystal when it reappears and you have all the time in the world to finish them off since they will be unable to capture any altars.

Or just hold one altar, kill everything on the map, and then kill the Demagogue (and continue on with the rest of the mission if necessary).

Like people have already mentioned, two-party missions without the option of having a full hench team on the other side are pretty crappy. Its especially obvious doing Vizunah from the foreign side. Last time I did it, I had a team full of level 13-17s, with one mending wammo to top it off. We finished and missed masters by 12 seconds, but after every wave their entire team was dead except for one or two guys...

Jongo River · Nov 05, 2007, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Personally, I love short sharp ones like the Grand Court. It was a nightmare the first time - I even tried pugging, I got that desperate. About my 10th attempt I got it right and haven't failed since, on every class.

It's the ones that take an age and only throw a real challange at you, right at the end, that I can't stand. I never finished NF, because of Gate of Madness. I didn't actually have much trouble with the Torment creatures, but everytime I got to the end - I couldn't aggro the Lich without getting Shiro first. I know I was probably doing something wrong, but when you have to spend another 30-odd minutes just getting there... OK, that might be an exaggeration, but it always seemed to take forever.

My other major gripe (and this is almost entirely in NF) is those stupid, illogical bonuses. I know the annoying Dunkoro stuff in Moddock has been covered, but has anyone mentioned Venta Cemetery yet? You're told to lead the evacuees to safety, *without* being discovered. I went spare when, after trudging around for ages trying to find a route around the guard posts, I was informed that the bonus was to *attack* every one of them! Am I supposed to be helping the monks escape, or putting their lives in danger for no staggeringly good reason? It's not as if Kournan troops are even *evil* - they're just following orders to fight the scoundrels who've invaded their damn country!

zwei2stein · Nov 05, 2007, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tea Girl

all missions in NF.

why do i need to finish the whole mission to get the bonus?

this is bongus

To prevent people just finishing bonus and quiting on pug?

It caused lots of frustration in early prophecies, as some jerk would join party to do bonus, quit when its done /hes done and does not care for others/ and leave party to fail bonus. not cool.

Good design to tie bonus completion to completing mission imo.